Things i need help with--Aux Bus for effects & mixer win

[arenson]

OK
I need to set upan aux bus for effects for TWO purposes:
(1) to listen to my voice while recording dry with a bit of effect to make singing easier

(2) to save memory when applying effects.


I understand i need to set up the bus by going to MODIFY OUTPUTS AND AUX BUSSES

Add 1 output on Port---well, if this is correct so far, then which port? onme that i am using to record (assigned to a current track for recording)?
or another? Maybe this is an area i am fuzzy about?

Back in the OUTPUTS IN THE TRACK WINDOW
I have all outputs tracks set the same (1 and 2), whch I guess refers to stereo output FROM my FIREPOD or FROM Metro to Computer? Don't know which. leaving 3 and 4, 5 and 6, 7 and 8, 9 and 10? So I guess this track window OUTPUT area connects to OUTPUTS AND BUSSES when I want to add something.

WHAT TO ADD FROM THAT MENU?
Ok, I want to have a few effects at the ready. Let's say reverb and delay?

maybe 3, compressor also.

So what do I do, add 3 outputs on port XXXX?

Or add 1 outout on port XXX
add 1 output on port YYY
add 1 output on ZZZ??????

the EXAMPLE IN THE QUESTION MARK HELP is confusing

Do I perhaps skip ALL that and just go to the bottom and ALLOCATE 3
stereo aux bus on 3 and 4 (for all three effects)? or do I allocate
1 stereo aux bus for these 3 effects.


Then the queestion is---how do I actually add those effects so they will be there for me?



I understand, once I have them, I can sned more or less of an effect...
separately to each channel or not BOTH POST recording or while recording dry to make it easier to hear what it should sound like.

I think for this one I add a final step of making sure in SWITCHES MENU that Software Audio Thru is checked. T

But i don't understan how I get the effect (after successfully creating the busses with the effects)---someone said, "If you do a command 9 and a command zero, you can bring up all plugins available and drag them to any given track."


if so, wow, really easy, i just have to figure out how many outputs i allocate for how many busses for 3 effects.



LAST QUESTION

The instructions in METRO seem to be for using the mixerr to automate
stuff, like having things pan left and write, volume go up and down in the track over time). But I hope to just lay down tracks with decent values and then not touch them before mixdown. Hense, I would like to use the MIXER instead of the track window or graphic editor window for controlling my input values--if that can be done. on mixdown i see one stereo fader and a master fader ( I have a queestion in about that in basic questions). but is there instructions on using the mixer as I desciibed? I find it easier to rtelate to the fasers and pan things that way as i used to use a small 6 channel mixer in the 198s for mixing and it is ewasier to viisualize.


Thanks.

paul

[Jerm]

(1) to listen to my voice while recording dry with a bit of effect to make singing easier

You do not need an aux buss to do this. You can simply turn on 'audio software through' in the switches menu (assuming you have the full version).

(2) to save memory when applying effects.

The reason to use an aux buss would be if you want to apply the same effect to more than one track. Otherwise use a track insert.

Add 1 output on Port---well, if this is correct so far, then which port?

You will need to select an audio port here. There is a very good tutorial, written by our friend Scoot, located on our downloads page that shows exactly how to set up an aux buss.

I have all outputs tracks set the same (1 and 2), whch I guess refers to stereo output FROM my FIREPOD or FROM Metro to Computer? Don't know which. leaving 3 and 4, 5 and 6, 7 and 8, 9 and 10? So I guess this track window OUTPUT area connects to OUTPUTS AND BUSSES when I want to add something.

I would be guessing too as I do not have a firepod here. The easiest way to create a new output is to select 'add new output' from the output popup in the tracks window or graphic editor.

WHAT TO ADD FROM THAT MENU?
Ok, I want to have a few effects at the ready. Let's say reverb and delay? Do I perhaps skip ALL that and just go to the bottom and ALLOCATE 3 stereo aux bus on 3 and 4 (for all three effects)? or do I allocate 1 stereo aux bus for these 3 effects..

If you want those effects at the ready for all tracks then you should place each effect on a separate aux buss so yes, allocate 3 aux busses. This will allow you to adjust the signal being sent to each aux buss from the mixer window. Select the aux page from the popup (main, aux 1, aux 2, etc.) then the volume will be an aux send. Again this is covered in the aux tutorial. Also be sure to have each track output assigned on a separate mixer channel.

Then the queestion is---how do I actually add those effects so they will be there for me?.

Go to the plug-ins window, find the plug-in you want and then drag it to the aux buss name in the mixer window.

but is there instructions on using the mixer as I desciibed?

Sorry, but I don't understand the last question.

[arenson]

Wow, looks like much there will answer my questions....

I found the guide...great. But bedtime now in Tokyo, so tomorrow evening, or when i can take a peak at work.....(!)

Great....


My last question is, I wonderd if I can use the Mixer INSTEAD of the TRACKS AND GRAPHIC EDITOR. It is more intuitive for me to visualize an ausio mixer being used to enter sound into the computer as well as adjust mixdown. But the mixer here seems to function for automation or just adjusting the faders for mixdown. Anyway, a question for another day.


BTW
I had been playing around before you sent this and succeeded in adding effects in the tracks menu (plugin and program)...After attempting adding bus. But i could not find a way to edit in that window, as with the presets in the EDIT menu under Audio PLUGINS.

And then I also found a NON BUS way with PLUG INS dragged to the EFFECTS window (the effcts were way too loud compared to when I used the AUDIO PLUG INS in the EDIT Window, even with very little SEND...not sure why thngs work differently, but it is too late now so will rest up for tomrrow. So far I have always used the audio effect plug ins in the
EDIT menu and it worked well, but with this one EFFECTS WINDOW and plugins dragged to it, the effects are super loud for some reason.

This is not a bus question, but the fact that there are so many ways to do something makes or a certain confusion.

Af, looking forward to trying the tutorial. Thanks for the quick response.

Paul

[Scoot]

Wow so many questions and a lot of quick answers and I was only away a few days.

Just to avoid confusion in the quick guide - the MIXER used to be called INSTRUMENTS and you already found the Modify OUTPUTS (which used to be modify Instruments in the guide).


Any plugin added to a track will have a menu option automatically added to the bottom of the WINDOWS menu if it has its own window to 'edit'

Once you've got all your tracks in through TRACKS and GRAPHIC EDITOR you can quite happily sit with the mixer window open tweaking - or are you asking to add a load audio dialog box under each track?
I suppose if another window was created for selecting a audio folder location you could than drag and drop audio onto the track window or mixer faders. Seems a little bit like doing what you doing with importing anyway eh?

This 'way too loud' situation - could you have a wet and dry signal added together? If you have the original and the processed it could be louder than normal. 2 different tracks playing or the same one with the dry and wet optioned faders both up.


The 3 auxes - lets call them reverb, delay and compression for 1, 2, 3.

Once you have the 3 allocated and a plugin on each, and say now you have a guitar on track 1 and a bass on track 2 in the mixer.

You can use the MAIN mixer popup (mixer top right) and change it to AUX 1.
Now on track 1 and 2 you can set the level for the reverb
Change it to AUX 2 and then you're adding delay to the guitar and bass
change to AUX 3 and you're adding compression.

Remember it's doesn't sound like you're accomplishing a great deal but in theory using 3 or 4 aux busses on 20 tracks is certainly a CPU saving.

Also remember if you're picking the AUMatrixReverb on a setting of medium room you're adding medium room to all but you're dicatating the strength for each track. Some may be high some just a little tweak.


Sorry arenson a load of waffle......what was the question again???

[arenson]

Well, the guide makes it easier. I wish the whoe manual were like that. Like most manuals it goes in reverse to many (mine?) people's learning styles. I want to have a piucture of where I am going and what I can hope to achieve. 3 cheers for this addition. (I edit manuals for a watch company and it is the same problem. Every function is described, but the user never understands whay the fuction is therein the first place.....)


Anywho.....I immeditely ran into sime stumbling blocks, but let's see what they are.
We are told to drag to effect one. Good, I chose the same reverb. (We are not told to choose a second, but I guess two is the max.) Anyway, if i want 5 effects at the ready, do i create 3 of these thingadoos, with 2, 2, and 1 effecct respectively, or is there any reason I should not out 5 effects with 5 stereo busses allocated, one per effect? This is the kind of thing I always get hung up on...buut ok, playing along,
Inotice the next differencc.--->

The picture shows the send/dry/wet bars and next to them I see
various little knobs that do not appear onmine.

On mine i see the equivalent (more or less) in a list IF I click EDIT.

I am not sure it matters, but anyway, nice if what i see is what you show.



But onthe mext page, I go to the Mixer Window (labelled INSTRUMENTS in your instructions. I click Aux. And moving track one fader does absolutely nothing.

I have the effects fader (ON MINE IT SAYS EFX (Aux 1 at bottom).

But playing with the far left fader does nothing.

I thik, hm, maybe it has to so with how my Firepod in and outs are set, so I go to the Tracks window.

Track 1 OUTPUTS shows Firepod 1 and 2 and Input Sel is 3.
Track 2, OUTPUTS are same by the way. And Input Sel is 4
This refleclts my original use of track 1 for voice and track 2 for guitar.
The guide does not assume I was previosuly using them for somethng, but should they NOT be set to match what i did in the setup guide?

Why does not manual not mention what these should be?

Ok.....will go and read. I see another message came in while I was tyoing this earlier.






[url][/url]

[arenson]

I will wait to answer your otyher questions, Scoot, as I want to get this to work first. But my gess is this will be more than enough. I see I CAN use the mixer window to add effects. I thought it was only an automatic tool, but this is actually what I was hoping for.


Oh yeah, somethng that isn't clear.

In the effects/Synths window, some things I can drag and some i can't.
Like AU Time Pitch no butu AU Pitch yes. So I added tis.

Now Above BYPASS and STEREO OUT I see the same choices, but not sure what i am supposed to do with them.

I am hoping that this is where I can set an effect ONLY to listen to but not put in the mix, when i am recording a dry signal only. or have the choice of adding it EITHER to the mix WHILE recording (not my usual way) OR
after (what i prefer).

So close, but so far, yet much closer than last week. Two bad for 1.5 weeks in bed with the flu I had no energy to get out of bed, and so had to re-learn......


Wish I could quit work and just play with this all day!!!!

[Scoot]

5 effects on 5 aux busses.

If you were to add 2 effects to the same bus, you would be mixing both all the time unless you bypassed one of them........so what would be the point?


The knobs in the picture are a standard for a plugin which doesn't have it's own 'edit' window. A lot of the built-into OSX plugins are like that.


oops boss here........back to work.

[Jerm]

The knobs in the picture are a standard for a plugin which doesn't have it's own 'edit' window. A lot of the built-into OSX plugins are like that.

The knobs are gone unless you select 'non-apple generic editor' from the plug-ins contextual menu. This makes it easier to see the settings for plug-ins from multiple tracks and aux busses since each plug-in gets its own window. This is the default setting in 6.3.8.x.

[arenson]

Scoot and Jerm. Thanks...


<----If you were to add 2 effects to the same bus, you would be mixing both all the time unless you bypassed one of them........so what would be the point?----->

Ok. Actually this illustrates a problem I had the other day when i was attempting to put several effects on the same effects palette(not buss, just effects palette). I said it sounds loud. Now I know why. I didn't think about bypassing. So I got the sound doubling.....Ok, so keep it to 2 per buss.


<---The knobs in the picture are a standard for a plugin which doesn't have it's own 'edit' window. A lot of the built-into OSX plugins are like that.

AND
The knobs are gone unless you select 'non-apple generic editor' from the plug-ins contextual menu. This makes it easier to see the settings for plug-ins from multiple tracks and aux busses since each plug-in gets its own window. This is the default setting in 6.3.8.x.---> OK....
Won't worry.

But I guess the big thing is why I can't get the bus to work has to do with inputs and outpuyts, as I wrote above.

I tried all day off and on, but while I followed directions and got the busses, with their AUX 1 and AUX 2 indications, Raising and lowering the fader (first one on the left) did not add the effect single.....


I am guessing that I have to change the ports.

Since actually inSel I use plug my mics into inputs 3 and 4 of my Firepod, I use inpsel 3 and 4 for microphone mnemonically. Since keyborad is in 5 and 5, I use inpsel 5 and 6 in those tracks.

For all those, the outputs I use are presonus 1 and 2 (which works). I do not get yet why ins and out of presonus have such confusing names, since visually on my firepod box I do see 8 possible left, right (or left and right combinations in the Insel of Metero) for input.

***** A KEY HERE?????
But on the firepod box there are no such 8 outputs, and that is why I avoid using the firepod 1 and 2 as inputs for anything, because I have selected a dn 2 for Outouts as 1 and 2, though instintively i am not sure the 1 and 2 of the output menu correspond to the visual 1 and 2 INOPUTS I see on the box itself.

Whatever, that part has been working, though it may be a key in my misunderstanding.

Anwyway, back to attempt to get it to work...



******ANOTHER KEY
Last night I never tried to record a live note. I just dragged a stereo track (AIFF file) into track 9 and then tried to use the effects buss on track 1 to make track 9 change

So that effects buss was on track 1, which shows up with a white horizontal line in the track menu (to the right of levels).

*******AND ANOTHER
I saw no instructions for what inpsel and Outputs in Metro to use for Track 1 (the buss) or any track I was recording or, in this case, track 9, containing the dragged file.


Does the putput remain the same (1 and 2). Then what of the insel?


I must be making an obvious mistake, but what is it?


Thanks


Off to the doctor for the flu...
(stlll)

[Jerm]

But I guess the big thing is why I can't get the bus to work has to do with inputs and outpuyts, as I wrote above.

I tried all day off and on, but while I followed directions and got the busses, with their AUX 1 and AUX 2 indications, Raising and lowering the fader (first one on the left) did not add the effect single.....

The problem here is almost definitely that you do not have track 1 assigned to fader 1. This will cause the problem you are experiencing. Go to the tracks window and in the outputs column assign the correct (and unique) fader to the track so that track-1 is assigned to fader-1, track-2 to fader-2 and so on and so forth. If you control click on the name of the fader in the mixer window you can verify the path of all sound producing tracks that are assigned to this particular fader by looking at the inputs submenu.

Similarly you can control click on the track name in the tracks window (or the track title bar in the graphics editor) to trace the output signal of the track.

Hope that helps.

[Scoot]

I guess the reason I don't suffer this problem is if I have a project and I add soundfonts to it using the DLSMusicDevice, I allocate DLSMusicDevice outputs which automatically creates a set of faders which are for DLS.

That way I can add reverb and delay to the aux bus and add them to free soundfonts.

[Jerm]

....presonus have such confusing names, since visually on my firepod box I do see 8 possible left, right (or left and right combinations in the Insel of Metero) for input.

This is a problem with many Core Audio Drivers. If they do not provide the input and output names, us application developers cannot show it. We do have a feature whereby you can go in and give each output pair and each input a name. This is the device-options of digital audio setup; Click on "edit channel names..."

Whatever, that part has been working, though it may be a key in my misunderstanding.

Ok. I strongly recommend you go to the edit channel dialog and enter the correct names before continuing. After entering the names, verify that they are correct with each input and output.

I saw no instructions for what inpsel and Outputs in Metro to use for Track 1 (the buss) or any track I was recording or, in this case, track 9, containing the dragged file.

Please read the part of the manual that refers to the tracks window?

[arenson]

AFTER I WROTE MOST OF THIS, I WENT AND DISCOVERED...
the mixer faders were there all along (I hadnot extended the thing out far enough. And here i was confusing everyone with seemingly unanswerable questions that dd not make sense because the mixer window was not extended out far enough!!



PLEASE READ OR NOT.....I will post here as an artifact documenting my trials and tribulations.

Toward the middle, I went back and took another look at the faders.....and found my big big mistake was not tho extend the window all the way to the right!!!!



-- - - - - - - - -ignore for now...i leave it because something may still be relevant in two days wehn i have anotgher chance to test, and otherwise I might forget.
--->

This is a problem with many Core Audio Drivers. If they do not provide the input and output names, us application developers cannot show it. We do have a feature whereby you can go in and give each output pair and each input a name. This is the device-options of digital audio setup; Click on "edit channel names...

I strongly recommend you go to the edit channel dialog and enter the correct names before continuing. After entering the names, verify that they are correct with each input and output.

"

I think this is actually ok...see below.

I went and tested everything I understand so far and what i don't. Much is not about misundersanding a specific instruction; it is about my EXPECTATIONS of that effect being mistaken.

First, things that generally work, thanks to your great patience:

MY SETUP (done like this for mnemonic reasons)

Mic 1---> firepod presonus input 1
Mic 2---> ' ' ' ' ' 2
Keyboard L--> ' ' ' ' 3
Keyboard R--> ' ' ' ' 4
(no midi for now)


Firepod Presonus OUTPUT-----Firewire--->G5 MAC
----Main CR Output--> speakers



My layout in the Track menu


NAME OUTPUTS INPSEL
1vocal Presonus 1-2 presonus 1

THIS IS WHAT SHOWS UP, AnD THE REST WORKS
IN THE SAME WAY WHEN I ADD TRACK INFO. THE PROBLEM IS THE FADERS DON'T REFELCT THIS.
In regard to track 1, somehow seeing 1 for both input and out seemed wrong, but it works. I guess the firepod 1 output is coming trhough the firewire?

All the rest reflect the inputs on the firepod


2 SAME AS ABOVE
USE IT AS A SECOND RECORDING FOR VOICE
3 SAME AS ABOVE " (harmonies, etc.)
4 SAME AS ABOVE "
5 SAME AS ABOVE "
6 NOTHING
7 Guitar nylon) Presonus 1-2 1

So guitar mic is in firepod input 2, and
the Metro Outputs and Inpsel are 1-2 and 2 respectively.

In fact ALL tracks are set for the same OUTPUTS and this works fine.


8 SAME AS 7 but for12 string
9 Same as 7 for second nylon guitar
10 Same as 8 for second 12 string
11 Keyboard L Presonus 1-2 3
So now the Input Sel reflects the left keyboard inut



12 11 Keyboard R Presonus 1-2 4

13 Duplicate of 11 for additional keyboard sounds

14 13 Duplicate of 11 for additional keyboard sounds


And so on.


All things record fine. SO pat myself and you on the back.




BUT THE FADERS. YOU SAY I SHOULD WRITE THEM IN?



But ok, I have
TRACK WINDOW
1 Presonsus 1-2 OUT Presonus 1 INPSEL
2 "
3 "
4 "

7 " 2inpsel
8 " 2
9 " 2
10 " 3
for example


I go to the mixer window (MAIN)

PLAY IS GRAY, RECORD IS WHITE

OPTIONS
Port 1 2 3 4 7 8 9 10

I can cllick on these, but do not see any outputs I recognize

I see OUTPUT PLUG 1-1 (no audio stuff,all MIDI)


And for each of 8 ports shown, can only select
OFF
PLUG 1
P-250 (PORT 1)--My midi keyboard (attached via USB to computer, not firepod)
External


Under Channel I see 1-15 (seems to be only midi again,not audio)


Under B/C there is an option to check.


And under Send there is PRE and POST.




AH WAIT!!!!!! The MIXER EXTENDS FAR BEYOND.

STUOID ME!!!!!!

Now I see on the right my faders---> 1 2 3 4


THIS IS EMBARRASING!!!!!!



I will leave this alll here so you can see my stupidity and understand where i have not been at!.


THE REST WAS WRITTEN BEFORE DISCOVERING THE FADERS WERE ACTUALLY THERE!!!!

So take with a grain of salt.

In fact, let me play the weekend and then come back. It may be that all is well. Don't bother with the below, since-as said-I wrote it before figuring out that my mixer window WAS ok from the start!!

Will leave so you can see where I will be going. Time for bed.


---> ignore for now

WISH LIST 1
What I would LIKE TO DO is be able to have the effect added AS I record.
So far Ican only add effects to things I have already recorded.


WISHLIST 2
Better, i don't care if I add it, but i like to at leas hear some reverb in my headphne when i record. Not actually ADDING an effect as I record, but something I really wish i could do.


EFFECTS AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO SO FAR

I saw no instructions for what inpsel and Outputs in Metro to use for Track 1 (the buss) or any track I was recording or, in this case, track 9, containing the dragged file.

Please read the part of the manual that refers to the tracks window?[/quote]


I did, but I am not quite following it.
But because of the tracks/fader mismatch, I can't see stuff T

EFFECTS SUCCESSES

SIMPLE WAY
I copied one voice track to an empty track---> My goal was to add the effect and see what happens.

So I took that copied track (silenced all the others), chose AUDIO PLUG INS, AU AUVarispeed. make it sound like chimpunks. CLICKED OK.

Presto, the track is now like Alvin and the Chimmuks.



MORE COMPLEX WAY
Using another copied track and this time tried adding the effect to an effect/sysnth window. Seems to be identical as SIMPLE WAY in terms of result. NO NEED TO CLCK OK...It is added by selected, and I can modify at any time.

WHAT I THINK UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS WINDOW
Across the top it shows the track (#21) , the name (same as orignal), and stereo out. It looks like that is just for convenience and that I could load another track from the window wihout moving back to the track window. or change outputs.


And I can turn off the effect for the track entirely with Bypass.


Ok, the problem one.

The BUSS Effects , But i thinkI need to clear up the
Fader.track issue first.

<-----

[Scoot]

Just a couple of tips / points maybe..........

IN the mixer Grey play and white record means you're allowing the faders to display and show automation recorded moments you have done.


If you were to add an effect while recording, it is not something you could remove afterward. That's why most effects are added later.