"easy to use" claim--for all versions?

[arenson]

Hi

First, about me and potential uses. Am both a maker of radio shows (music and announcements) for the Internet, and a musician who plays badly with a score and acceptably by ear. Instruments are voice (opera and folk), guitar and keyboard. Where possible I will use audio out rather than Midi since my Yamaha keyboard is really a synthesizer. But would like to use both.

I am a MAC user who was not that familar with METRO until looking at ads and reviews for various other software. I am one of those people who learns intuitively and actually finds manuals harder to understand (I failed math in HS..that was 35 years ago) because I take them too literally at times...... Learning curves are not lessened by manuals in my case.

Trying to see IF Metro is right for me, if so, which (all?) version(s)?

In recent years learned to use Garageband without the manual for the most part. (They don't have one anyway). This was after about 8 years when I self taught myself enough of Cakewalk in order to be able to do radio shows (one track for music and another for announcements). I also used First Hand (Motu?)for MIDI because it did not require that a player be that precise, the problem I found with some other Midi programs I tried.

It seemed to bend to the playing. Not sure what the term is. That was when I was a Windows user.

Which is why I liked Garageband. It was similar enough to Cakewalk.
but the Midi part is not there. And since I wouldlike to be able to combine both, I have thought of LOGIC EXPRESS or PRO since
they are related. But many people say the Learning Curve is hard.


Tehn I tried an earlier version or tracktion and it worked. Later version does not (I have a wierd M-Audio 410 and that MAY be the problem...it works ok with GB but nothing else right no). Presounus Firepod is what I would normally use and will be out of the shop soon.

Tried Live and a few others and found them not at all clear, too abstract or just no sound.


Well, anyway, I read somewhere that metro is easy to learn--one of the easiest. But not sure if that applies to all or just the extremely light one.

I think I can upgrade from the middle to the top one, but not from the lower to the middle or top, right?

In any case, I want to ask if one ofthese products may be right for me, given my description of being in the past relatively comfortable with what I do (ignoring what I don't need) with First Hand (Midi), Cakewalk (Audio mostly) and Garageband.

I wonder if ANY program is as intuitive as Firsthand was, for example, where Midi is concerned. And then, if it will be a realtively smooth switch from GB for audio?


I have a Dual G5 desktop.


Thanks

Paul Arenson
(Japan)

paul@tokyoprogressive.org

[Scoot]

As far as I know......there are 3 versions of Metro (SE, LX and Full) and you don't lose anything by purchasing SE and then later upgrading to LX or FULL (the upgrade price is the difference between the versions).

The purchasing page doesn't show a lot of options for the first time buyer, but you see more options on the 'upgrade' page.
There is also a bit of upgrade legacy from the old product - Cakewalk Metro 5.0 and there was a price upgrade required between version 6 and 6.2 when 'rewire' features were included.


As far as which one is right for you........the basic design difference is how many tracks do you have to hear at the same time?

SE - 8
LX - 16
FULL - 64

If you require full automation and notation, it's only available in the full version.

Check this link for other differences........

http://www.sagantech.biz/products/


As far as how easy it is as a learning curve.......
I would say Metro Full may look daunting if you were to go through the menus and see all the options available. A lot of the options you may never need or use.

My recommendation would be to run the Metro SE demo and see if you can work your way round the interface.

The transport window should be a pretty simple concept - play stop rewind and record.........and a counter for your location.

Most of your early work can be done with the graphic editor and tracks window for editing and to see which tracks are playing, muted, solo'ed and outputted to, and then the mixer window for volumes and master volume when putting everything together afterwards.


A good place to start would be view the graphic editor and import midi files or audio files. Play, stop or record a new track with a 'R' allocated to it.

I'm still waiting to open my Metro manual.


As far as a hardward interface goes......you just need to tell Metro to allocate outputs to it.
Once you know that OSX has it available through it's audio/midi setup, there is a midi setup option in the menus of metro, and then you just go to 'modify outputs and busses' and select some outputs for it.

Start off simple and just get Metro opening audio, selecting and modifying it with the tools and go from there.

The learning curve shortens considerably once you get going.

[Jerm]

I think I can upgrade from the middle to the top one, but not from the lower to the middle or top, right?

No, all version are upgradable with no cost penalty.

I wonder if ANY program is as intuitive as Firsthand was, for example, where Midi is concerned.

I am not aware of any program named 'firsthand'. I think MOTU had a product named 'FreeStyle'. Perhaps that is what you are referring to. As for ease of use and upgrading, your best bet is to do as Scoot suggests, download the demo of SE (and/or the full version) and put them to your test.

If you like what you see you can purchase Metro here.

[MP]

Hi Paul,

You've come to the right place. For me, a Digital Audio Workstation must be powerful, stable, intuitive, well supported, and able to run on relatively modest hardware. Metro meets those requirements better than any other DAW I know of. Easy to use? Well, professional DAWs are complex programs and each one has its own way of doing things. I find Metro's workflow intuitive and, thanks to the demo, I didn't have to buy it in order to find out. Most importantly, Sagan Technology posts frequent updates with improvements and bug fixes. In fact, the creator of Metro has been actively developing it since the late 80's! Go ahead and give it a try and let us know what you think.

Mike

[arenson]

Well, thanks MP, Scoot and Jerm. I tried some audio and it seems to be very Cakewalk like. Next tried to hook up Midi.

Oh yes, it was FREESTYLE! My memory failed me.



Last time used Midi was about 7 years ago....and with this device (Yamaha P-250 keyboard), I have never. Hooked up Midi wires to and from the device to M-Audio 410. The Yamaha drivers for Mac are 2002 vintage (OS 9). I searched on Yamaha and only found USB-MIDI V 1.00. Not even sur ethat is the right driver. If I install, reboot, it shows up as OTHER in my System Preferences and not connected. metro recogizes the Firewire device M-Audio 410 is connected. But test does not work, nor does APPLY.

This was both before and after installing the driver. But i wonder..I thought OS 10 doesn't even need a driver. Not sure if I had that right. Garageband also does not work. So I am wondering, never having used MIDI on the MAc at all if there is something I am doing wrong.

Thanks in advance.

[kaboombahchuck]

Did you set up your midi conection in CORE MIDI... located in Applications>Utilities>AudioMIDIsetup>MIDI devices

[arenson]

I thought it was somehow automatic, but on checking found that it did indeed load before and I set it.

There was IAC Driver, Network and now Firewire 410. ( I think I had dione ADD DEVICE when it showed up).


I also was able to rename it (created a new icon) called "yamaha" but that seems superfluous. Click on ports and get 1 for in and also for out.

No sound with TEST SETUP.

My Yamaha has a MIDI out switch that I turend on byut it doesn't matter.

And I set the port speed to MAC OS.

In a demo of Sibelius I clikc their DEVICE test and geta scale.

That is the one positive thing.

[kaboombahchuck]

In the MIDI setup window You will find the Firewire 410 icon, then ADD device Name it yamaha (you did this) Place the Yamaha icon below the Firewire icon. From the bottom of the Firewire icon you will see arrow blocks (probably named port A and B and so on depending on how many midi ports your firewire interface has. On the top of the Yamaha icon there will also be arrow blocks. draw a line from the out arrow of the firewire icon to the in arrow of the Yamaha Icon, and the same for the in arrow of the firewire interfac to the out of the Yamaha. Run test.

[arenson]

I made those line connections.

no sound yet. the yamaha was off. turned it on. and the midi out enabled.

Hmmmmm.


May have to be away for a few hours. (as much as 12)...here being Japan and it is almost 11 PM.


how can I be sure the new device i add is actually the Yamaha?


For what it is worth, the Yamaha-USB patch I installed (I assumed this was the driver I needed) shows not connected in SYSTEM preferences.

DEVICE NAME does not display either.

thanks

paul

[MP]

Hi Paul,

What version of Mac OSX are you using? You will need devices with drivers known to work in that version.

Yamaha P250 - From what I have been able to determine, the midi interface on this device is not supported on OSX. If I'm correct, you would be able to use this keyboard only with a separate midi interface.

Firewire410 - M-Audio has updated drivers for this device that work up to the current version of OSX (10.4.3). Since this device has a 1X1 midi interface built in, you could connect the Yamaha's midi out to the Firewire410's midi in. Check here to get the correct drivers for the OS version you have:

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.drivers

I know you're not a big fan of manuals, but I would at least check out the quickstart guide for the Firewire410:

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.manuals

Loading the right driver and referring to the documentation might be the shortest path to getting things working. Good luck!

Mike

[arenson]

Hi MP

Thanks for the info...
I am confused, however, since I have the Yamaha going to the Firewire...and the Firewire going to the Mac. (and how else to connect to the Mac i wonder?)


Will read in detail tomrrow...(it is time for bed)......

By the way, Firepod should be back from the repair shop soon. perhaps it will work better with the Firepod?


paul

[Scoot]

Midi out on a synth will go to midi in on an interface
Midi in on a synth will go to midi out on an interface


Make these connections and the one needed to the mac etc.

Turn on the synth/keyboard and interface.

Make sure you have all your core midi options set correctly then shut down the mac for a few minutes.

I had a similar problem after a long break and resumption with midi.
I could get midi in but not out.........and the shut down cured it.
(PSR and a midisport interface)


To get the synth seen by metro is then a case of

SETUP menu - midi setup ---> Record from: (name given to synth in core midi say its Yamaha)


SPECIAL menu - modify outputs and busses ---> allocate some outputs to Yamaha with the popup called Outputs on Port: will be Yamaha (make sure you tick the ADD box)


In the graphic editor on the line you see 1. untitled R M S etc. change the second to last popup to a Yamaha port and hopefully the piano roll on the left when clicked should output sound to the yamaha.

[arenson]

Scott and all

Thanks for the help...will try suggestions after the holiday. I note a VERY SIMILAR discussion here that, as far as I can see, was not resolved:

http://www.macjams.com/forum/viewtopic. ... opic=21230


Just to confirm a few unclear things:

(1) The Yamaha allows USB. If I connect USB directly to the MAC instead of MIDI to the M-Audio 410 (or soon, the Presonus Firepod), will I elminate any possible problem caused by the Interface (assuming that is the case, which I am not so sure it is)? Or does USB also require an interface?

(2) Though the directions above do not mention the fact that the Yamaha software shipped with it only support OS 9, am I correct in assuming that the keyboard SHOULD work with OS X even if I do not have a Yamaha driver? (I have the OS 9 drivers but have not tried installing and using OS 9)

(3) I downloaded what I THOUGHT was a Yamaha OSX driver, but their site is very vague, and so it sits in my SYSTEM PREFERENCES -OTHER and says nothing is connected--Yamaha USB-MIDI Patch (Driver?) Ver 1.0.0.

Anyway, after the holiday will try again...


Thanks


paul

[Scoot]

In a similar vain to the USB on the keyboard, my Yamaha had a serial port on it which could plug directly into a pre USB type Mac.

All this worked fine under OS9 but was broken in OSX.
Obviously OMS was allowing everything to work and doing the job of commuication between the 2 devices.
OMS 2.3.8 recognizes USB.
If you have access to OS9 (not classic) you could try metro that way.

I would have thought the USB would require a form of driver, so the correct driver for the interface (M Audio) should get everything working.
Something that is telling the mac the comm speed and protocols etc.


Which OSX are you running?